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hi everyone this is martin willis with

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podcast ufo and welcome to episode

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number 13 with dr bruce mcabee he's a

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very interesting guest he spent a long

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career at the naval surface warfare

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center during the time since the 1960s

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he was doing ufo research but one had

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nothing to do with the other he does

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excellent photo and film analysis your

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feedback is always welcome you can email

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us at info podcast ufo.com don't forget

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to follow us on twitter at twitter.com

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auctionpodcast and i hope you enjoy

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hi everyone i have dr bruce mcabee on

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the line how you doing bruce

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i'm doing well thank you thanks for

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joining us and uh i've seen you in a

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number of videos and have looked online

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and you have quite a background can you

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tell our listening audience basically

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your background well i uh

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graduated from high school of course and

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i went through

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10 years of college to get a phd in

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physics

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from american university in washington

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dc

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and i

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went to work for the navy in

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january of 1972 and

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stayed there until 2008 36 years wow

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that's a long run maybe experience here

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i had no idea that was going to happen

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when i started off i thought i'd work

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for the navy for a few years and work

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for a company or something but anyway of

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course i did a lot of different uh

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research projects

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for the navy

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but in the meantime

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um in the late 60s while i was getting

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my phd i got interested in the ufo

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phenomenon and

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went on some case investigations with

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some other people

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in the late 60s early 70s and then

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you might say struck out on my own

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in the 70s and 80s 90s and even up until

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today for example

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so

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experience in interviewing

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interviewing people and

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creating the history of a sighting and

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analysis

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as possible

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you have to have a lot of a

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scientific background

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of various types

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in order to handle the ufo subject

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things like astronomy

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can can be very important knowing stars

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and planets and

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what's up in the sky and stuff like that

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so you left

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you left the navy in 2008 so you were

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doing both was there ever a conflict at

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all no

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the navy people

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told me to just leave their name out of

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it and

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they didn't care what i did on my own

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time

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wow

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that's uh that's almost surprising um

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but

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that's great they let you do that i know

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analysis is a big part of that can you

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explain

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and

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just before we go on with that question

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i think i heard you say in a video one

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time or maybe at a conference

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that

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photos don't really matter

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as much as

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the witnesses to corroborate the photo

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so can you kind of explain what you

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meant by that and what's involved in

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doing analysis on a typical photo

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well what i said was a photo a ufo does

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not make

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you got to have a lot of circumstantial

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evidence

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support the photo a photo can break a

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case

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there might be some evidence in it

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that is clearly showing it's a hoax a

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little thin line coming down at the top

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of a ufo or some sort of support at the

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bottom or something like that

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but

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if you find no evidence of faking you

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could say well that's a perfect fake

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i don't know what you do

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yeah

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i learned this the hard way you might

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say from my study of

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the trent photos the windville photo

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window oregon

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uh may 11th 1950.

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two photographs taken by a farmer oh yes

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water spotted this thing that's right

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it's right by uh right by a building

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right

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well you see a garage

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part of the garage in the in the picture

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you see a couple of wires going over the

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top

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you see this

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two pictures showing

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different orientations of this object

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and the pictures are clear enough you

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don't need magnifying glass to see

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uh

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what the image shape is

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that's clearly the real thing or a hoax

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there's no halfway point

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so

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this illustrates the situation uh

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lots of laboratories have looked at this

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the original negatives and tried to find

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proof evidence of a hoax

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and haven't found it but you know they

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could have been lucky

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or they could have been clever

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if you consider the uh pile of a string

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for example

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it has to be a certain

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thickness

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anything that's too thin

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wouldn't be still it would be soldered

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against the background

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gray sky this is a black and white

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photograph

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so the background sky just looks you

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know light colored if they had been

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clever and had taken a thread that was

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that matched the color of the background

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then you never see it at all

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because you've got to have contrast in

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order to see something

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right right and uh so then

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i did a lot of uh study on that

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particular case

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in the early in the middle 70s because

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it was the first the only one that was

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sort of endorsed

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by the photograph photographic analyst

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william dr william hartman who was

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working for the uh the condom committee

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as part of what was called the

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scientific study of identify flying

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objects carried out of the university of

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colorado in

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68 69

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time for it

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hartmann had said that

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he

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factors investigators seem to point

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towards the

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truth of the claim that witnesses that

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they saw an extra extraordinary flying

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object passed by in other words he was

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convinced that was the only case that he

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thought was a

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could really be real

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as i said it was either the real thing

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or a hoax and he didn't find any

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evidence he could point to to prove it

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was a hoax but then uh some people came

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along clay and criticized his analysis

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and so on and schaefer and robert

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shaffer and philip j class

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enhancements analysis

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partially on photographic grounds and

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partially on

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how it wasn't in a sense hard enough on

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the witnesses i guess you might say

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anyway i spent many years investigating

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it both from the point of view of

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technical deals of details of the

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photography

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and

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the life history of the friends

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and i

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got

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testimony from a number of different

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people who had

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known the friends and so on and the

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trend stayed alive up until 1995 i was

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interacting with him from 1974

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approximately through

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1980

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talking to mrs trent many times

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and they both died in the middle 90s and

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they were

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they

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were maintaining their story right up to

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and

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nobody that i know found any evidence

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that they would be likely to even think

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of a hoax of any type of all say nothing

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about ufo hoax

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they were you know what we might call

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simple farmers

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and

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have plenty to keep them busy besides

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making up a model and hanging out a

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string and then

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for whatever it was worth which wasn't

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wasn't anything really

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yeah they didn't make any money out of

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the whole thing now there was very

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similar object was uh there's photos on

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in different places in the world isn't

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that right well there's only one other

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case that i know that looks

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uh

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virtually identical it's just a slightly

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different orientation and that's a

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so-called

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photo taken supposedly

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france

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by a military

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some

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pilot in a military airplane that's the

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way

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the story appeared

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in the royal air force for squatting

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review

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and fought and

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flying saucer review

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two magazines that were published in

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england

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uh they both mentioned this photograph

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unfortunately nobody's ever attract been

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able to track that photo back

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to its origin

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and uh nobody did an investigation of it

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at the time it was published

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uh all we know is that they say it was

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a photo taken in 1957. and that's the

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only one that looks would be almost

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identical to the tread photos they have

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then of course lots of other photos of

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circular

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shaped craft

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but it sort of had like a flat top to it

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or it looks something like flat one has

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a truck where there's a pole a pole on

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the top oh that's right okay yes i

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remember that now

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now

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did you ever take a look at the

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three or four polaroid pictures that

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were taken from

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the person in the truck um

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sorry i don't have my face

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you're talking about the headphone case

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that's right yeah

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65 i think that was

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um

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i look at it but it's most recently been

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studied by other people

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because uh

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when i was looking at it in the 1970s

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80s

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all i had were copies

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in that situation

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rex huffman said that a few days after

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he

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so people showed up

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with the military uniforms on a black

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car or whatever

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and requested

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they ask if they could borrow the

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pictures

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for analysis

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they had already been to the general

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publishing laboratory into the alpha

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marine base i believe

292
00:10:31,430 --> 00:10:28,959
or at least the altar marine base

293
00:10:33,190 --> 00:10:31,440
and they had been returned so he

294
00:10:34,310 --> 00:10:33,200
gave up these pictures

295
00:10:36,150 --> 00:10:34,320
and then he

296
00:10:38,150 --> 00:10:36,160
never returned

297
00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:38,160
his original polaroids

298
00:10:41,269 --> 00:10:39,760
were gone

299
00:10:43,829 --> 00:10:41,279
for a long time but they came back to

300
00:10:45,430 --> 00:10:43,839
someone they came back in the middle 90s

301
00:10:46,630 --> 00:10:45,440
some lady

302
00:10:49,190 --> 00:10:46,640
called him on the phone and said why

303
00:10:50,630 --> 00:10:49,200
don't you go out and check your mailbox

304
00:10:52,230 --> 00:10:50,640
and sure enough there has been what were

305
00:10:54,230 --> 00:10:52,240
those pictures of it that is just

306
00:10:56,389 --> 00:10:54,240
bizarre isn't it

307
00:10:57,990 --> 00:10:56,399
yeah i don't know strange circumstances

308
00:10:59,269 --> 00:10:58,000
make this have to be from that point

309
00:11:00,790 --> 00:10:59,279
they'll make it out to be a hoax for the

310
00:11:03,110 --> 00:11:00,800
real thing it doesn't

311
00:11:04,790 --> 00:11:03,120
but a much more sophisticated analysis

312
00:11:05,910 --> 00:11:04,800
has shown that uh

313
00:11:07,430 --> 00:11:05,920
um

314
00:11:09,430 --> 00:11:07,440
it's quite likely that this this is a

315
00:11:11,750 --> 00:11:09,440
real case

316
00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:11,760
even uh factor faked has done some stuff

317
00:11:19,509 --> 00:11:17,040
on a tv show oh really yeah yeah and uh

318
00:11:20,230 --> 00:11:19,519
they their big thing is to make models

319
00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:20,240
and

320
00:11:27,030 --> 00:11:24,560
one of the biggest criticism against the

321
00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:27,040
pictures uh that's heflin took was his

322
00:11:32,069 --> 00:11:29,279
last photograph which doesn't show

323
00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:32,079
an object but it shows a smoke ring

324
00:11:37,190 --> 00:11:34,160
that shows the sky

325
00:11:39,030 --> 00:11:37,200
and he had said that the

326
00:11:40,230 --> 00:11:39,040
smoke ring picture had been taken i

327
00:11:42,470 --> 00:11:40,240
think within a minute of the

328
00:11:43,990 --> 00:11:42,480
disappearance of this object

329
00:11:45,670 --> 00:11:44,000
and he thought the smoke ring either

330
00:11:47,829 --> 00:11:45,680
made by the object at all i'm not sure

331
00:11:49,670 --> 00:11:47,839
if he was positive about that

332
00:11:50,949 --> 00:11:49,680
but at any rate he took a picture of the

333
00:11:52,630 --> 00:11:50,959
smoke ring and when he took a picture of

334
00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:52,640
the smoke ring you can see a lot of

335
00:11:57,190 --> 00:11:55,360
structure of clouds in the sky

336
00:12:00,389 --> 00:11:57,200
in his three

337
00:12:02,389 --> 00:12:00,399
photos of the objects itself

338
00:12:03,590 --> 00:12:02,399
you couldn't see any structure in the

339
00:12:05,829 --> 00:12:03,600
sky

340
00:12:08,069 --> 00:12:05,839
and so there was a question

341
00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:08,079
did he really take four photos in a

342
00:12:12,230 --> 00:12:10,560
short period of time or it was a period

343
00:12:14,470 --> 00:12:12,240
of time when he could be

344
00:12:17,990 --> 00:12:14,480
creating a hoax smoke ring or something

345
00:12:20,949 --> 00:12:18,000
to back up his story about ufo

346
00:12:22,949 --> 00:12:20,959
and that was a sore point for a long

347
00:12:24,790 --> 00:12:22,959
time why isn't there structure in the

348
00:12:26,710 --> 00:12:24,800
sky in the first three pictures if

349
00:12:29,190 --> 00:12:26,720
there's structure in the fourth

350
00:12:30,470 --> 00:12:29,200
it turned out the answer was that

351
00:12:33,509 --> 00:12:30,480
the camera

352
00:12:35,190 --> 00:12:33,519
had automatic exposure control

353
00:12:38,389 --> 00:12:35,200
when it was in the truck

354
00:12:40,069 --> 00:12:38,399
it was not receiving as much light as it

355
00:12:41,990 --> 00:12:40,079
was when it was outside the truck to

356
00:12:44,550 --> 00:12:42,000
take the fish he took the first three

357
00:12:45,829 --> 00:12:44,560
pictures when he was inside the truck

358
00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:45,839
in the fourth picture when he was

359
00:12:51,750 --> 00:12:47,760
outside the truck

360
00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:51,760
exposure meter was giving the correct

361
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:53,600
exposure for the sky

362
00:12:56,230 --> 00:12:55,200
resiliently and then you can see

363
00:12:57,750 --> 00:12:56,240
structure

364
00:12:59,190 --> 00:12:57,760
whereas when it was inside the truck the

365
00:13:01,670 --> 00:12:59,200
exposure meter wasn't getting enough

366
00:13:02,389 --> 00:13:01,680
light so it was opening up the lens more

367
00:13:05,509 --> 00:13:02,399
or

368
00:13:08,069 --> 00:13:05,519
allowing a longer time of exposure

369
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:08,079
exposing the film more and that tended

370
00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:10,079
to

371
00:13:14,310 --> 00:13:12,240
lose contrast

372
00:13:15,430 --> 00:13:14,320
the sky structure was

373
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:15,440
too bright

374
00:13:20,629 --> 00:13:17,920
to be accurately photographed

375
00:13:22,069 --> 00:13:20,639
so it turned out that uh

376
00:13:24,069 --> 00:13:22,079
with this more

377
00:13:26,790 --> 00:13:24,079
recent analysis that

378
00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:26,800
argument was verified and and so

379
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,880
now nobody can claim that half of them

380
00:13:31,829 --> 00:13:30,720
took three photos of a model and then

381
00:13:37,110 --> 00:13:31,839
took a

382
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,750
they can

383
00:13:43,990 --> 00:13:42,310
argue that

384
00:13:46,629 --> 00:13:44,000
he took these four photos within a

385
00:13:48,230 --> 00:13:46,639
matter of minutes at the most yep that's

386
00:13:50,310 --> 00:13:48,240
an interesting one now i know you did a

387
00:13:52,389 --> 00:13:50,320
bit of work on the phoenix lights can

388
00:13:53,990 --> 00:13:52,399
you talk about that well a year after

389
00:13:55,590 --> 00:13:54,000
the phoenix whites

390
00:13:57,829 --> 00:13:55,600
case occurred you're talking about march

391
00:14:00,069 --> 00:13:57,839
13th 1997 right

392
00:14:03,030 --> 00:14:00,079
i might point out that there have been

393
00:14:05,910 --> 00:14:03,040
quote phoenix lights unquote free

394
00:14:08,069 --> 00:14:05,920
many times many times before that in the

395
00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:08,079
previous months and years

396
00:14:11,509 --> 00:14:09,760
many times since then

397
00:14:14,389 --> 00:14:11,519
and um

398
00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:14,399
all in april all in that phoenix valley

399
00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:17,760
right there oh yeah a lot of people

400
00:14:23,829 --> 00:14:21,040
in phoenix area and

401
00:14:25,189 --> 00:14:23,839
west and the north and so on of the city

402
00:14:26,870 --> 00:14:25,199
of phoenix

403
00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:26,880
anyway

404
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:35,670
i was asked by one of the

405
00:14:41,269 --> 00:14:39,120
video witnesses lin ketai

406
00:14:42,550 --> 00:14:41,279
to evaluate her videos in the other

407
00:14:44,389 --> 00:14:42,560
videos

408
00:14:46,629 --> 00:14:44,399
from our 13th

409
00:14:49,269 --> 00:14:46,639
and also from other years which i had

410
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:49,279
not heard about at that time when she

411
00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:50,800
contacted me

412
00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:54,480
she told me about january in 1998 and

413
00:14:58,870 --> 00:14:57,120
some other dates at which there had been

414
00:15:01,670 --> 00:14:58,880
like she said they look exactly the same

415
00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:01,680
as they saw on march 13th

416
00:15:04,870 --> 00:15:02,959
and so

417
00:15:06,790 --> 00:15:04,880
she sent me a bunch of videotapes and i

418
00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:06,800
started an analysis and

419
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:08,240
i was before

420
00:15:13,509 --> 00:15:11,120
for very other other reasons

421
00:15:14,470 --> 00:15:13,519
able to get to the phoenix area and

422
00:15:16,230 --> 00:15:14,480
actually

423
00:15:18,230 --> 00:15:16,240
go to the locations

424
00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:18,240
where the videos were taken

425
00:15:23,030 --> 00:15:20,480
take background and see

426
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:23,040
the scenery videos you might say

427
00:15:28,389 --> 00:15:25,440
to uh in order to carry out what's known

428
00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:28,399
as a triangulation from each point from

429
00:15:32,949 --> 00:15:30,560
each location of a video camera

430
00:15:34,470 --> 00:15:32,959
i would uh project the sighting line off

431
00:15:37,829 --> 00:15:34,480
into the distance

432
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:37,839
and then see if from two locations if

433
00:15:42,870 --> 00:15:40,399
the setting lines would meet somewhere

434
00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:42,880
then that would imply that the object

435
00:15:45,430 --> 00:15:43,920
was

436
00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:45,440
the lights were

437
00:15:49,030 --> 00:15:47,600
where the fighting lines met and i did

438
00:15:51,430 --> 00:15:49,040
this for

439
00:15:54,150 --> 00:15:51,440
the famous kristen arc that everybody

440
00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:54,160
ever sees on tv and so on they show over

441
00:16:00,310 --> 00:15:57,360
and over again an arc of lights

442
00:16:02,550 --> 00:16:00,320
taken by mike kristen and

443
00:16:04,069 --> 00:16:02,560
lynn katay had a video that showed free

444
00:16:05,590 --> 00:16:04,079
lights

445
00:16:08,310 --> 00:16:05,600
and uh

446
00:16:11,430 --> 00:16:08,320
chuck charles raritan

447
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:11,440
who was about 30 miles east of

448
00:16:16,389 --> 00:16:14,000
lynn ketai

449
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:16,399
also saw the same christian arc but he

450
00:16:19,350 --> 00:16:17,440
saw from a slightly different

451
00:16:21,030 --> 00:16:19,360
perspective

452
00:16:23,749 --> 00:16:21,040
and

453
00:16:26,150 --> 00:16:23,759
i was able to demonstrate that she took

454
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:26,160
kristin's sliding line and projected it

455
00:16:28,949 --> 00:16:28,000
and chuck right inside the line rejected

456
00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:28,959
it

457
00:16:34,550 --> 00:16:30,720
the lights were

458
00:16:37,189 --> 00:16:34,560
50 or 60 miles or 70 to 80 miles

459
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:37,199
south southwest of phoenix

460
00:16:40,710 --> 00:16:38,720
the witnesses had all said that lights

461
00:16:43,910 --> 00:16:40,720
were over phoenix

462
00:16:45,430 --> 00:16:43,920
and that they never moved

463
00:16:47,430 --> 00:16:45,440
now i'm talking about lights that were

464
00:16:49,189 --> 00:16:47,440
taken that were videotaped at 10 o'clock

465
00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:49,199
at night

466
00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:50,480
there's a

467
00:16:57,350 --> 00:16:53,519
the sightings at 8 30

468
00:16:59,829 --> 00:16:57,360
uh while we say between 8 and 9 00 p.m

469
00:17:01,829 --> 00:16:59,839
and in particular around 8 30 when some

470
00:17:03,189 --> 00:17:01,839
object appears to have traveled over

471
00:17:05,270 --> 00:17:03,199
phoenix

472
00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:05,280
that's an independent uh

473
00:17:10,630 --> 00:17:07,360
not not what i'm talking about

474
00:17:12,789 --> 00:17:10,640
i was asked to enter analyze

475
00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:12,799
videos were taken

476
00:17:16,789 --> 00:17:14,000
and

477
00:17:19,590 --> 00:17:16,799
the videos on march 13th were taken

478
00:17:20,390 --> 00:17:19,600
around 10 o'clock

479
00:17:21,829 --> 00:17:20,400
and

480
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:21,839
so anyway

481
00:17:29,590 --> 00:17:28,309
images of the

482
00:17:31,669 --> 00:17:29,600
videos

483
00:17:33,430 --> 00:17:31,679
that these lights were actually dropping

484
00:17:35,510 --> 00:17:33,440
downwards

485
00:17:37,590 --> 00:17:35,520
and moving a bit to the left

486
00:17:39,029 --> 00:17:37,600
the sighting line was to the south or

487
00:17:40,630 --> 00:17:39,039
southwest

488
00:17:42,310 --> 00:17:40,640
and

489
00:17:44,950 --> 00:17:42,320
i learned from a meteorologist that the

490
00:17:47,350 --> 00:17:44,960
general air mass was moving from right

491
00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:47,360
from west towards the east

492
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:49,200
if you're looking south and you see

493
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:51,039
something moving from west to east and

494
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:52,559
it's moving from right to left in front

495
00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:54,400
of your field of view

496
00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:56,400
and that's what these uh lights do they

497
00:18:03,029 --> 00:17:58,000
drop down there's a move

498
00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:03,039
move to the left uh a rate it's not

499
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:04,960
it's compatible with the idea that they

500
00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:05,760
were

501
00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:07,120
um

502
00:18:11,750 --> 00:18:08,400
players

503
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:11,760
very bright l.u luu2

504
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:14,160
military illumination flares

505
00:18:18,630 --> 00:18:17,440
which are dropped and then they deploy a

506
00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:18,640
parachute

507
00:18:21,590 --> 00:18:20,400
and heat from the

508
00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:21,600
player

509
00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:23,760
keeps the parachute aloft for a long

510
00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:26,400
time or makes it very drop very slowly i

511
00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:28,240
should say

512
00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:31,840
so anyway that was my input to the uh

513
00:18:38,549 --> 00:18:36,160
uh phoenix light situation was to uh

514
00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:38,559
show the videos pro the videos taking a

515
00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:40,720
ten o'clock probably were not

516
00:18:44,870 --> 00:18:43,280
related to the uh

517
00:18:45,830 --> 00:18:44,880
whatever was the floor over phoenix at 8

518
00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:45,840
30.

519
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:48,000
but unfortunately

520
00:18:53,669 --> 00:18:49,840
there's nothing there's supposedly one

521
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:53,679
video of that which is not very good

522
00:18:57,669 --> 00:18:55,679
mostly it was just witnesses seeing that

523
00:18:59,750 --> 00:18:57,679
thing go over yeah

524
00:19:01,510 --> 00:18:59,760
and there were enough of them

525
00:19:04,150 --> 00:19:01,520
now there were

526
00:19:06,549 --> 00:19:04,160
when i began my investigation of the

527
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:06,559
so-called phoenix lights

528
00:19:10,950 --> 00:19:08,160
the videos

529
00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:10,960
i began by analyzing not in the march

530
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:12,000
13th

531
00:19:16,310 --> 00:19:13,840
1997

532
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:16,320
but in videos taken in by the same

533
00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:19,840
witnesses on january 14 1998

534
00:19:25,750 --> 00:19:22,720
in january 14 1998

535
00:19:28,070 --> 00:19:25,760
they had a line of

536
00:19:30,230 --> 00:19:28,080
a video show a line

537
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:30,240
of whites

538
00:19:33,830 --> 00:19:31,440
almost

539
00:19:35,909 --> 00:19:33,840
not not exactly equal but pretty close

540
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:35,919
to equal spacing

541
00:19:40,630 --> 00:19:38,480
and if you set a ruler on your tv screen

542
00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:40,640
while you play this video

543
00:19:43,909 --> 00:19:42,000
and look at the line of light just

544
00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:43,919
perfectly straight

545
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:50,549
but when you

546
00:19:55,029 --> 00:19:52,960
plot the triangle the

547
00:19:57,029 --> 00:19:55,039
line of lights from different

548
00:19:57,990 --> 00:19:57,039
perspectives

549
00:20:01,669 --> 00:19:58,000
uh

550
00:20:01,679 --> 00:20:06,470
you can't see from just one perspective

551
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:08,230
um

552
00:20:13,830 --> 00:20:11,280
i analyzed lights from january 14th 1998

553
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:13,840
and uh concluded they too were

554
00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:15,600
70 or so miles

555
00:20:19,669 --> 00:20:17,600
southwest of phoenix now what's uh what

556
00:20:22,150 --> 00:20:19,679
is southwest of phoenix the barrie

557
00:20:23,110 --> 00:20:22,160
goldwater training range

558
00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:23,120
where

559
00:20:25,990 --> 00:20:24,240
the

560
00:20:28,149 --> 00:20:26,000
military drops players as part of

561
00:20:30,230 --> 00:20:28,159
military exercises

562
00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:30,240
and

563
00:20:38,390 --> 00:20:31,360
we were

564
00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:41,350
the maryland national guard

565
00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:45,669
using the

566
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:47,840
goldwater training range to drop flares

567
00:20:52,149 --> 00:20:50,320
to high altitude

568
00:20:55,669 --> 00:20:52,159
so this is all stuff that's on my

569
00:20:57,590 --> 00:20:55,679
website for people who are interested in

570
00:21:02,630 --> 00:20:57,600
knowing what

571
00:21:04,470 --> 00:21:02,640
about those videos

572
00:21:07,830 --> 00:21:04,480
well while you just mentioned that why

573
00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:07,840
don't you give out your website address

574
00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:10,960
okay s w dot

575
00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:14,960
b r u m a c s brewmack

576
00:21:19,110 --> 00:21:17,360
dot eight k

577
00:21:20,310 --> 00:21:19,120
number eight letter k

578
00:21:24,230 --> 00:21:20,320
dot com

579
00:21:28,390 --> 00:21:25,909
all right and i'll i'll put that under

580
00:21:31,669 --> 00:21:28,400
this podcast as well can you think of a

581
00:21:33,669 --> 00:21:31,679
situation where there was uh looked like

582
00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:33,679
pretty solid evidence for a long time

583
00:21:38,149 --> 00:21:36,320
and you figured out that it was a hoax

584
00:21:40,510 --> 00:21:38,159
well yeah

585
00:21:43,510 --> 00:21:40,520
there was august 6

586
00:21:44,549 --> 00:21:43,520
1996 i think

587
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:44,559
video

588
00:21:49,029 --> 00:21:47,360
from mexico city which looked very good

589
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:49,039
as

590
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:50,320
anybody who's seen in that video a

591
00:21:52,789 --> 00:21:51,600
number of times would recognize it from

592
00:21:55,510 --> 00:21:52,799
the description

593
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:55,520
you saw you see uh building off in the

594
00:22:00,070 --> 00:21:57,520
distance a big high-rise apartment

595
00:22:01,909 --> 00:22:00,080
building and the things kind of floating

596
00:22:04,470 --> 00:22:01,919
at the left edge of this building you

597
00:22:06,710 --> 00:22:04,480
see this circular thing rotating and

598
00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:06,720
wobbling right and then it starts to

599
00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:08,400
move towards the building and disappears

600
00:22:12,310 --> 00:22:10,080
for a period of time behind the building

601
00:22:14,710 --> 00:22:12,320
supposedly and reappears up above the

602
00:22:16,390 --> 00:22:14,720
building travels along to the right it's

603
00:22:17,990 --> 00:22:16,400
always moving to the right

604
00:22:19,510 --> 00:22:18,000
travels to the right

605
00:22:23,029 --> 00:22:19,520
and

606
00:22:24,390 --> 00:22:23,039
correctly

607
00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:24,400
and

608
00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:25,760
i thought that was pretty interesting i

609
00:22:29,350 --> 00:22:27,440
thought there might be some

610
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:29,360
physics related to the propulsion of

611
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:31,120
this object

612
00:22:35,830 --> 00:22:33,840
based on the wobbling and rotation

613
00:22:37,510 --> 00:22:35,840
but there was another guy who was also

614
00:22:41,669 --> 00:22:37,520
working on this case

615
00:22:46,070 --> 00:22:45,110
and he had discovered something funny

616
00:22:49,590 --> 00:22:46,080
that

617
00:22:53,110 --> 00:22:49,600
he did it on a statistical basis by

618
00:22:55,029 --> 00:22:53,120
analyzing each frame of the video

619
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:55,039
and um

620
00:22:58,230 --> 00:22:57,440
turned out that the

621
00:23:00,549 --> 00:22:58,240
as

622
00:23:02,310 --> 00:23:00,559
the camera wobble occur the whole the

623
00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:02,320
camera

624
00:23:08,870 --> 00:23:06,640
supposedly was looking at this scene

625
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:08,880
from another apartment house

626
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:10,720
or an office building

627
00:23:14,470 --> 00:23:12,480
and it was being held by hand it was

628
00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:14,480
wobbling around

629
00:23:18,149 --> 00:23:16,080
and he found that on a sort of on a

630
00:23:19,510 --> 00:23:18,159
statistical basis

631
00:23:20,710 --> 00:23:19,520
the edge of the building would get

632
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:20,720
smeared

633
00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:22,960
by the hands of vibration but the edges

634
00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:25,760
of the ufo did not

635
00:23:30,950 --> 00:23:28,320
and then i found two frames

636
00:23:33,830 --> 00:23:30,960
that i have posted on my website

637
00:23:36,149 --> 00:23:33,840
two frames that clearly show what i call

638
00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:36,159
fingerprints of a hoax

639
00:23:39,669 --> 00:23:37,840
where the

640
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:39,679
camera moved enough we know the

641
00:23:44,310 --> 00:23:42,400
buildings do not move

642
00:23:45,909 --> 00:23:44,320
i mean that's for a fundamental

643
00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:45,919
assumption here

644
00:23:50,549 --> 00:23:48,480
and yet the edges of the building are so

645
00:23:53,350 --> 00:23:50,559
smeared in the vertical direction the

646
00:23:54,710 --> 00:23:53,360
horizontal edge is so smeared i just say

647
00:23:56,870 --> 00:23:54,720
the horizontal edge of the top of the

648
00:23:59,029 --> 00:23:56,880
building is so smeared

649
00:24:00,870 --> 00:23:59,039
by vertical motion

650
00:24:01,990 --> 00:24:00,880
that it's hard to

651
00:24:03,590 --> 00:24:02,000
to

652
00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:03,600
make out where the edge is if there are

653
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:05,120
little flags

654
00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:08,080
or i was told there were wind socks

655
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:09,760
on the top of the building

656
00:24:13,669 --> 00:24:11,440
you can see them in the steady frames

657
00:24:15,029 --> 00:24:13,679
but this couple of really super blurred

658
00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:15,039
frames the

659
00:24:19,029 --> 00:24:16,480
blurring is so much that you can't even

660
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:19,039
see the windsock it's just

661
00:24:24,149 --> 00:24:21,360
blurred out you might say

662
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:24,159
but the edge of the ufo doesn't change

663
00:24:28,310 --> 00:24:26,159
it's just as sharp as the ones as the

664
00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:28,320
frames where there's no blurring

665
00:24:32,789 --> 00:24:31,120
there's two frames for comparison here

666
00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:32,799
where um

667
00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:35,120
the edge the building edge is extremely

668
00:24:40,630 --> 00:24:38,080
blurred the ufo edge is not

669
00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:40,640
and this um semi-like the ufo image was

670
00:24:43,669 --> 00:24:41,840
pasted in

671
00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:43,679
that that seems like that would be very

672
00:24:49,430 --> 00:24:46,480
difficult to do but obviously um with

673
00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:49,440
all the software and stuff out there

674
00:24:54,630 --> 00:24:51,840
when that when our video came out

675
00:24:57,990 --> 00:24:54,640
i was interacting with a guy in

676
00:24:59,909 --> 00:24:58,000
hollywood who was making uh

677
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:59,919
tv shows and stuff and he had some

678
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:01,200
people he told me

679
00:25:05,110 --> 00:25:03,520
had some people say well say okay if

680
00:25:06,310 --> 00:25:05,120
you're going to do this yourself what

681
00:25:08,549 --> 00:25:06,320
are you going to do

682
00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:08,559
i got several

683
00:25:12,789 --> 00:25:10,640
video

684
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:12,799
from different people who took on the

685
00:25:15,750 --> 00:25:14,559
problem of creating a video that looked

686
00:25:18,390 --> 00:25:15,760
like that

687
00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:18,400
and none of them looked exactly the same

688
00:25:20,789 --> 00:25:19,520
but they all had the same

689
00:25:22,630 --> 00:25:20,799
characteristics

690
00:25:24,149 --> 00:25:22,640
of an object rotating and wobbling and

691
00:25:26,149 --> 00:25:24,159
then going behind a building and coming

692
00:25:28,470 --> 00:25:26,159
up above and then going off into the

693
00:25:29,669 --> 00:25:28,480
distance

694
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:29,679
and

695
00:25:34,390 --> 00:25:31,360
apparently for somebody who was really

696
00:25:36,789 --> 00:25:34,400
into cgi computer-generated imagery it

697
00:25:37,510 --> 00:25:36,799
was not a very difficult task

698
00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:37,520
and

699
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:39,600
one big problem has to go with the

700
00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:42,799
circumstantial evidence unlike the

701
00:25:45,430 --> 00:25:44,480
internal case where you had lady the

702
00:25:47,190 --> 00:25:45,440
people

703
00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:47,200
were the witnesses of the photographer

704
00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:48,720
available to talk to

705
00:25:53,110 --> 00:25:51,600
for years and years afterwards

706
00:25:55,269 --> 00:25:53,120
in this

707
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:55,279
mexico city case

708
00:26:00,470 --> 00:25:57,840
it was a sent the video was sent to

709
00:26:01,669 --> 00:26:00,480
jamie marcea who was a

710
00:26:04,070 --> 00:26:01,679
um

711
00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:04,080
tv commentator there who's done a lot of

712
00:26:07,990 --> 00:26:05,760
your work on ufos

713
00:26:10,789 --> 00:26:08,000
and uh

714
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:10,799
it was anonymous the person said that he

715
00:26:15,269 --> 00:26:12,320
was in the country illegally and didn't

716
00:26:17,029 --> 00:26:15,279
want to reveal his name

717
00:26:18,470 --> 00:26:17,039
but with an

718
00:26:19,669 --> 00:26:18,480
anonymous witness there's not much you

719
00:26:22,630 --> 00:26:19,679
can do so

720
00:26:25,269 --> 00:26:22,640
the video sort of hangs out there in

721
00:26:26,789 --> 00:26:25,279
free space you might say

722
00:26:28,870 --> 00:26:26,799
except for those

723
00:26:30,789 --> 00:26:28,880
except for that problem with the uh

724
00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:30,799
ver the smear of the buildings being

725
00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:32,480
greater than the smear of the ufo image

726
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:33,440
itself

727
00:26:37,909 --> 00:26:35,200
and by the way both smears should be the

728
00:26:41,510 --> 00:26:37,919
same there's a real image it's a real

729
00:26:45,269 --> 00:26:42,630
except for that this would have been

730
00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:45,279
treated as a monumental ufo

731
00:26:47,990 --> 00:26:46,480
video

732
00:26:51,110 --> 00:26:48,000
but fortunately

733
00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:51,120
saneo discovered this problem with it

734
00:26:54,789 --> 00:26:53,360
before everybody went super public and

735
00:26:57,029 --> 00:26:54,799
committed themselves to say well it's

736
00:26:57,990 --> 00:26:57,039
for real tons of videos of course on the

737
00:26:59,510 --> 00:26:58,000
internet

738
00:27:01,350 --> 00:26:59,520
in the years since

739
00:27:03,029 --> 00:27:01,360
and i don't know how many million there

740
00:27:03,909 --> 00:27:03,039
might be now

741
00:27:07,029 --> 00:27:03,919
but

742
00:27:13,269 --> 00:27:10,070
detail and quality i know the one that

743
00:27:15,269 --> 00:27:13,279
has the most hits on it on youtube

744
00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:15,279
is the one that was proven to be a hoax

745
00:27:19,350 --> 00:27:17,120
and that's the one in haiti that was

746
00:27:21,510 --> 00:27:19,360
totally a hoax

747
00:27:23,750 --> 00:27:21,520
very very well done i mean these people

748
00:27:25,029 --> 00:27:23,760
are very the people that really go

749
00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:25,039
through all the trouble seem to do a

750
00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:27,039
pretty good job for the most part that

751
00:27:32,070 --> 00:27:28,240
was a video

752
00:27:34,630 --> 00:27:32,080
um

753
00:27:36,470 --> 00:27:34,640
there was an analysis of it

754
00:27:38,549 --> 00:27:36,480
and i think there's something like 16

755
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:38,559
million downloads of it it's something i

756
00:27:43,029 --> 00:27:40,240
probably saw but i've seen so many

757
00:27:46,070 --> 00:27:43,039
things sort of blur together yeah

758
00:27:49,029 --> 00:27:46,080
now have you looked into the one that

759
00:27:50,390 --> 00:27:49,039
looked really good for a while and uh i

760
00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:50,400
haven't really heard anything about it

761
00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:52,720
but it was the dome of israel if you

762
00:27:56,549 --> 00:27:55,200
looked into that one yeah well there are

763
00:27:58,870 --> 00:27:56,559
a number of

764
00:28:00,310 --> 00:27:58,880
commentaries on that and that's where

765
00:28:01,909 --> 00:28:00,320
this

766
00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:01,919
video shows a bright light dropping down

767
00:28:06,710 --> 00:28:04,159
towards the delta the rock

768
00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:06,720
and uh it sits there and also there's a

769
00:28:09,750 --> 00:28:08,480
very bright flash and then it goes

770
00:28:12,070 --> 00:28:09,760
zooming up

771
00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:12,080
and supposedly so the witnesses saw red

772
00:28:15,269 --> 00:28:13,840
lights up in the sky

773
00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:15,279
i think as they looked up after the

774
00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:19,360
thing zoomed away whatever and uh

775
00:28:24,230 --> 00:28:21,760
there were i think four or four videos

776
00:28:26,389 --> 00:28:24,240
associated with that that's right and

777
00:28:27,269 --> 00:28:26,399
one of them the second or third to come

778
00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:27,279
out

779
00:28:30,549 --> 00:28:29,600
was absolutely concretely proven to be a

780
00:28:32,389 --> 00:28:30,559
hoax

781
00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:32,399
really there's no doubt about it because

782
00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:34,960
it was a photograph of the scene that

783
00:28:39,110 --> 00:28:37,120
was used for the camera shake to make it

784
00:28:41,269 --> 00:28:39,120
look as if the camera was photographing

785
00:28:42,389 --> 00:28:41,279
the scene but as time went on as i

786
00:28:44,710 --> 00:28:42,399
recall

787
00:28:46,389 --> 00:28:44,720
the lights the lights in the scene never

788
00:28:48,870 --> 00:28:46,399
changed

789
00:28:51,110 --> 00:28:48,880
like the ufo imagery was

790
00:28:52,789 --> 00:28:51,120
superimposed on

791
00:28:54,870 --> 00:28:52,799
um

792
00:28:57,269 --> 00:28:54,880
they had taken a photograph

793
00:28:58,710 --> 00:28:57,279
and used that as the background

794
00:29:00,789 --> 00:28:58,720
and then they

795
00:29:02,630 --> 00:29:00,799
put this ufo

796
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:02,640
into the scene and then they after

797
00:29:06,149 --> 00:29:04,320
getting the composite and they started

798
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:06,159
causing it to wiggle around either by

799
00:29:10,549 --> 00:29:08,159
photograph either by using a video

800
00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:10,559
camera to videotape a screen that was

801
00:29:15,909 --> 00:29:13,120
printed that was showing this video

802
00:29:17,750 --> 00:29:15,919
where they actually use a uh

803
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:17,760
a program

804
00:29:23,350 --> 00:29:18,720
to

805
00:29:24,830 --> 00:29:23,360
forth up and down in a random manner

806
00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:24,840
that was one of the videos was

807
00:29:31,269 --> 00:29:27,840
absolutely proven to be a hoax

808
00:29:32,789 --> 00:29:31,279
uh and i think i i sort of lost interest

809
00:29:34,389 --> 00:29:32,799
and didn't really track it very closely

810
00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:34,399
after that but i think yeah basically

811
00:29:39,350 --> 00:29:36,880
it's considered to be a hoax now i would

812
00:29:41,430 --> 00:29:39,360
think that if one was a hoax and it just

813
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:41,440
kind of gives them all away at the very

814
00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:42,720
least it's not something we spent a lot

815
00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:43,840
of time on

816
00:29:48,070 --> 00:29:45,840
there was a another problem with that

817
00:29:50,149 --> 00:29:48,080
was the lack of reaction of city

818
00:29:52,950 --> 00:29:50,159
officials shall we say

819
00:29:54,630 --> 00:29:52,960
i pointed out that when this

820
00:29:56,070 --> 00:29:54,640
uh well others have pointed out that if

821
00:29:57,430 --> 00:29:56,080
this thing had actually been a bright

822
00:29:59,350 --> 00:29:57,440
light to drop down into the dope in the

823
00:30:02,710 --> 00:29:59,360
rock which has got to be one of the most

824
00:30:04,630 --> 00:30:02,720
secure areas in the world right

825
00:30:08,310 --> 00:30:04,640
uh every other person in the street

826
00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:08,320
probably is a boss ad person or secret

827
00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:10,880
service or something like that

828
00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:12,880
keeping track of what

829
00:30:15,750 --> 00:30:14,080
even though it was 1 o'clock in the

830
00:30:18,710 --> 00:30:15,760
afternoon in the evening 1 o'clock in

831
00:30:21,669 --> 00:30:20,389
approximately 1 o'clock in the morning i

832
00:30:23,269 --> 00:30:21,679
believe

833
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:23,279
there would have been tourists and other

834
00:30:26,870 --> 00:30:24,640
people there

835
00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:26,880
and this bright light the big bright

836
00:30:31,190 --> 00:30:29,120
flash that occurred

837
00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:31,200
uh is shown lighting up the buildings

838
00:30:34,630 --> 00:30:32,720
and so on

839
00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:34,640
and um

840
00:30:38,630 --> 00:30:36,480
if you've ever been in an electrical

841
00:30:40,389 --> 00:30:38,640
storm in a house when lightning and

842
00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:40,399
thunder going off

843
00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:42,080
you can be inside the house if the

844
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:44,000
lightning flash occurs you see that

845
00:30:46,870 --> 00:30:45,520
inside the house even you're not looking

846
00:30:48,149 --> 00:30:46,880
out the window

847
00:30:49,590 --> 00:30:48,159
you know it's a flash of light there's

848
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:49,600
so much light there's lighting up

849
00:30:53,909 --> 00:30:50,960
everything and light goes through

850
00:30:55,669 --> 00:30:53,919
windows and lights up rooms and so on

851
00:30:57,909 --> 00:30:55,679
well i would have expected

852
00:30:59,669 --> 00:30:57,919
that someone would have said hey

853
00:31:01,750 --> 00:30:59,679
what's that flash of light that we had

854
00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:01,760
last night

855
00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:02,880
good point

856
00:31:08,230 --> 00:31:04,720
yeah

857
00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:08,240
there was a lack of background now

858
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:11,200
there's there was a so-called chad hoax

859
00:31:14,149 --> 00:31:12,720
or some guy by the name of chad

860
00:31:16,149 --> 00:31:14,159
supposedly took a picture of a thing

861
00:31:19,750 --> 00:31:16,159
that looked like

862
00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:19,760
very somewhat like a ceiling fan

863
00:31:23,750 --> 00:31:22,159
in the air he had a number of photos as

864
00:31:26,070 --> 00:31:23,760
opposed to the

865
00:31:28,310 --> 00:31:26,080
novel ufo had

866
00:31:30,710 --> 00:31:28,320
wires going upwards

867
00:31:32,549 --> 00:31:30,720
in a curvy manner

868
00:31:34,389 --> 00:31:32,559
like a vase

869
00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:34,399
i think i've seen that somewhere that

870
00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:35,840
sounds very fast

871
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:38,080
four or five years ago

872
00:31:43,909 --> 00:31:40,399
first there was one one set of photos

873
00:31:45,909 --> 00:31:43,919
from one location in california i think

874
00:31:47,350 --> 00:31:45,919
then another location and another

875
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:47,360
location

876
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:48,559
and the

877
00:31:52,230 --> 00:31:50,320
shape of the object the structure of the

878
00:31:53,590 --> 00:31:52,240
object got more complicated as this went

879
00:31:56,230 --> 00:31:53,600
on

880
00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:56,240
then there was a

881
00:32:01,110 --> 00:31:58,559
a document supposedly a top secret

882
00:32:02,310 --> 00:32:01,120
project to reverse engineer

883
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:02,320
a ufo

884
00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:04,799
that came out and that was also related

885
00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:05,840
to this

886
00:32:10,630 --> 00:32:08,640
i think the whole thing ended up being a

887
00:32:13,990 --> 00:32:10,640
publicity play for

888
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:14,000
somebody trying to demonstrate how well

889
00:32:19,750 --> 00:32:17,600
he can make computer generated imagery

890
00:32:21,509 --> 00:32:19,760
but uh i'm not sure on that but again

891
00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:21,519
that's another thing where

892
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:23,440
we never got to talk to the witnesses

893
00:32:26,389 --> 00:32:24,240
right

894
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:26,399
can you think of a situation where you

895
00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:28,559
think it's very solid you know i know it

896
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:30,960
must be hard to commit and say this does

897
00:32:34,870 --> 00:32:32,720
not appear to be a hoax you can't really

898
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:34,880
go much further than that can you well

899
00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:36,480
you can say if it's got

900
00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:38,720
obvious characteristics

901
00:32:42,070 --> 00:32:40,960
um that

902
00:32:43,350 --> 00:32:42,080
that we might be able to say well it

903
00:32:44,149 --> 00:32:43,360
doesn't look like anything it was made

904
00:32:46,789 --> 00:32:44,159
here

905
00:32:48,230 --> 00:32:46,799
i could take the trent photo gas

906
00:32:49,669 --> 00:32:48,240
it's obviously not a bird or a plane or

907
00:32:52,389 --> 00:32:49,679
superman

908
00:32:54,549 --> 00:32:52,399
and uh

909
00:32:58,710 --> 00:32:54,559
so then what is it it is not a hoax it's

910
00:33:04,789 --> 00:33:01,750
another case that i worked on many years

911
00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:04,799
ago was a new zealand sighting

912
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:06,320
from an airplane

913
00:33:12,149 --> 00:33:10,640
that occurred in december 31st 1978

914
00:33:13,830 --> 00:33:12,159
and

915
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:13,840
that

916
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:15,360
investigation

917
00:33:20,070 --> 00:33:17,760
lasted days months and years

918
00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:20,080
really but ultimately ended up proving

919
00:33:24,470 --> 00:33:22,000
that whatever there was video it was

920
00:33:26,310 --> 00:33:24,480
photographed i should say movie film

921
00:33:28,310 --> 00:33:26,320
that case was one of the most best

922
00:33:30,789 --> 00:33:28,320
documented cases ever

923
00:33:33,110 --> 00:33:30,799
with uh multiple witnesses including an

924
00:33:35,190 --> 00:33:33,120
aircraft airplane crew

925
00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:35,200
captain and co-pilot

926
00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:36,720
and a news crew that was on board the

927
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:38,640
raid it on the airplane

928
00:33:41,830 --> 00:33:40,720
a reporter a cameraman and a sound

929
00:33:44,389 --> 00:33:41,840
recorder

930
00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:44,399
the cameraman got color movie film

931
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:46,480
there was a ground radar and airplane

932
00:33:52,710 --> 00:33:49,679
radar involved so you had

933
00:33:55,029 --> 00:33:52,720
images captured on film and you had

934
00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:55,039
you had the wellington air traffic

935
00:33:59,190 --> 00:33:57,919
control center audio tape

936
00:34:00,950 --> 00:33:59,200
which

937
00:34:02,070 --> 00:34:00,960
provided a timeline for everything that

938
00:34:05,029 --> 00:34:02,080
happened

939
00:34:06,870 --> 00:34:05,039
and the reporter himself on the airplane

940
00:34:08,230 --> 00:34:06,880
had his own tape

941
00:34:09,510 --> 00:34:08,240
of things and

942
00:34:12,230 --> 00:34:09,520
these could be reasonably well

943
00:34:13,990 --> 00:34:12,240
correlated so

944
00:34:15,750 --> 00:34:14,000
there were

945
00:34:18,710 --> 00:34:15,760
a total of eight witnesses involved in

946
00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:18,720
that case as i recall

947
00:34:21,990 --> 00:34:20,399
that sounds pretty

948
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:22,000
it

949
00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:24,800
required a lot of technical analysis

950
00:34:28,149 --> 00:34:26,320
a lot of

951
00:34:29,589 --> 00:34:28,159
interview interviewing and putting

952
00:34:31,349 --> 00:34:29,599
together a history of the whole thing

953
00:34:33,430 --> 00:34:31,359
and so on

954
00:34:36,310 --> 00:34:33,440
and i would say that that was a whatever

955
00:34:39,270 --> 00:34:36,320
was there was a real ufo

956
00:34:43,669 --> 00:34:39,280
whatever that means yeah

957
00:34:44,470 --> 00:34:43,679
now did you ever look into the mexico

958
00:34:47,669 --> 00:34:44,480
uh

959
00:34:49,669 --> 00:34:47,679
the air force in mexico when they filmed

960
00:34:51,909 --> 00:34:49,679
with infrared

961
00:34:54,149 --> 00:34:51,919
cameras those

962
00:34:56,069 --> 00:34:54,159
strangers you bring that up

963
00:34:58,390 --> 00:34:56,079
okay

964
00:35:00,390 --> 00:34:58,400
you often see in

965
00:35:02,390 --> 00:35:00,400
tv shows

966
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:02,400
that are talking about ufos and they're

967
00:35:06,150 --> 00:35:04,480
showing one ufo image after another

968
00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:06,160
after another and so on and they'll show

969
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:07,760
this

970
00:35:15,430 --> 00:35:13,920
air forces is march 2004

971
00:35:16,550 --> 00:35:15,440
it shows

972
00:35:19,030 --> 00:35:16,560
clouds

973
00:35:20,790 --> 00:35:19,040
going by from right to left

974
00:35:22,390 --> 00:35:20,800
and these very bright lights off in the

975
00:35:24,630 --> 00:35:22,400
distance appearing to go behind the

976
00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:24,640
clouds and come out pop from behind the

977
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:27,119
clouds and so on

978
00:35:32,069 --> 00:35:29,760
and it's clear if you could speak

979
00:35:33,829 --> 00:35:32,079
spanish you'd know the guy was talking

980
00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:33,839
about seeing these lights out there and

981
00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:35,040
thinking they were traveling right along

982
00:35:38,470 --> 00:35:36,640
with them and they had

983
00:35:40,150 --> 00:35:38,480
12 i think it was

984
00:35:43,589 --> 00:35:40,160
ufo was traveling along with the

985
00:35:45,589 --> 00:35:43,599
airplane well yeah i did i did a study

986
00:35:47,030 --> 00:35:45,599
and it's probably the largest study ever

987
00:35:48,790 --> 00:35:47,040
published

988
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:48,800
i've never seen anything written up by

989
00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:54,470
i know that narcap

990
00:35:58,470 --> 00:35:55,920
did some work on it but i don't know if

991
00:36:00,870 --> 00:35:58,480
they've ever published a report

992
00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:00,880
that was a strange case because what

993
00:36:05,030 --> 00:36:03,280
alerted them to pay any attention at all

994
00:36:08,470 --> 00:36:05,040
to what was going on

995
00:36:11,670 --> 00:36:08,480
was not the infrared but it was radar

996
00:36:13,670 --> 00:36:11,680
as you can imagine the yucatan peninsula

997
00:36:15,589 --> 00:36:13,680
shutting out to the right heading out to

998
00:36:18,069 --> 00:36:15,599
the east

999
00:36:20,470 --> 00:36:18,079
mexico city is off to your left

1000
00:36:22,150 --> 00:36:20,480
to the west of yucatan

1001
00:36:25,750 --> 00:36:22,160
and this airplane is flying along in the

1002
00:36:28,069 --> 00:36:25,760
southwest in the northwest direction

1003
00:36:29,910 --> 00:36:28,079
uh suddenly on their radar this is an

1004
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:29,920
airplane which can do about 300 miles an

1005
00:36:33,750 --> 00:36:30,960
hour

1006
00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:33,760
uh 250 or something like that

1007
00:36:39,510 --> 00:36:37,440
it's on uh daily i suppose

1008
00:36:41,910 --> 00:36:39,520
periodic surveillance

1009
00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:41,920
for drug runners and

1010
00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:45,839
contraband aircraft and stuff like that

1011
00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:48,720
and they have a

1012
00:36:52,870 --> 00:36:50,320
camera that

1013
00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:52,880
in the belly of the airplane

1014
00:36:56,790 --> 00:36:55,040
that they can use uh

1015
00:36:58,790 --> 00:36:56,800
to pick up either

1016
00:37:01,430 --> 00:36:58,800
infrared or visible

1017
00:37:02,950 --> 00:37:01,440
imagery

1018
00:37:04,710 --> 00:37:02,960
and um

1019
00:37:05,829 --> 00:37:04,720
also they have the radar now the radar

1020
00:37:09,030 --> 00:37:05,839
tends to point in the downwards

1021
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:09,040
direction because they're looking for

1022
00:37:14,630 --> 00:37:12,560
airplanes taking off or landing and

1023
00:37:16,470 --> 00:37:14,640
forbidden airfields as they're heading

1024
00:37:18,550 --> 00:37:16,480
south northwest over the

1025
00:37:20,069 --> 00:37:18,560
yucatan they start picking up this radar

1026
00:37:22,870 --> 00:37:20,079
target

1027
00:37:25,030 --> 00:37:22,880
the first thought was oh some airplane

1028
00:37:26,710 --> 00:37:25,040
is just taken off from a landing zone

1029
00:37:29,750 --> 00:37:26,720
down there

1030
00:37:31,270 --> 00:37:29,760
and uh we should follow it i guess

1031
00:37:33,349 --> 00:37:31,280
their assumption was it might be a drug

1032
00:37:34,870 --> 00:37:33,359
runner so anyway they turned their

1033
00:37:37,829 --> 00:37:34,880
aircraft a little bit

1034
00:37:39,349 --> 00:37:37,839
to go trail behind this thing and then

1035
00:37:41,589 --> 00:37:39,359
they start catching up with it and they

1036
00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:41,599
get to win in two miles so

1037
00:37:44,150 --> 00:37:43,280
they can't seem to get any closer than

1038
00:37:47,190 --> 00:37:44,160
that

1039
00:37:48,829 --> 00:37:47,200
it speeds up and then it maintains a

1040
00:37:51,430 --> 00:37:48,839
two mile

1041
00:37:55,589 --> 00:37:51,440
distance so

1042
00:37:57,190 --> 00:37:55,599
naturally once they detect it on radar

1043
00:37:59,270 --> 00:37:57,200
initially i think about five miles and

1044
00:38:00,790 --> 00:37:59,280
then they get closer to it so looking

1045
00:38:03,030 --> 00:38:00,800
out the windows thinking

1046
00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:03,040
we ought to be able to see this thing

1047
00:38:05,910 --> 00:38:04,640
you can see an airplane of five miles

1048
00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:05,920
you can see the airplane at four miles

1049
00:38:09,109 --> 00:38:07,440
you can see the three aims here they're

1050
00:38:13,990 --> 00:38:09,119
two miles

1051
00:38:16,230 --> 00:38:14,000
so why can't they see it

1052
00:38:19,190 --> 00:38:16,240
so they're looking and looking where

1053
00:38:21,270 --> 00:38:19,200
they're visible uh camera they're not

1054
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:21,280
using the infrared yet they're using the

1055
00:38:24,790 --> 00:38:22,320
visible

1056
00:38:26,790 --> 00:38:24,800
and they track it for a while

1057
00:38:28,630 --> 00:38:26,800
then they switch to infrared

1058
00:38:30,630 --> 00:38:28,640
this is a special type of infrared known

1059
00:38:34,150 --> 00:38:30,640
as mid infrared

1060
00:38:36,150 --> 00:38:34,160
running three to five micron wavelength

1061
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:36,160
visible light is a

1062
00:38:42,150 --> 00:38:39,200
seven tenths of a micron or less

1063
00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:44,630
heat that you feel for radiating bodies

1064
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:46,480
typically is around 10 microns these are

1065
00:38:50,630 --> 00:38:48,480
the wavelengths i'm talking about

1066
00:38:51,670 --> 00:38:50,640
the thing about the mid infrared is if

1067
00:38:52,870 --> 00:38:51,680
you take a

1068
00:38:55,190 --> 00:38:52,880
photograph

1069
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:55,200
with a mid infrared imager

1070
00:38:57,990 --> 00:38:56,480
you can see

1071
00:38:59,670 --> 00:38:58,000
structures such as what you would see

1072
00:39:02,230 --> 00:38:59,680
with the naked eye

1073
00:39:03,910 --> 00:39:02,240
but you can also see hot places that you

1074
00:39:06,710 --> 00:39:03,920
could only see with a

1075
00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:06,720
heat sensitive camera

1076
00:39:10,710 --> 00:39:08,640
so if you're looking with your naked eye

1077
00:39:12,310 --> 00:39:10,720
you can see the outline of the aircraft

1078
00:39:13,510 --> 00:39:12,320
if you're looking with this mid-infrared

1079
00:39:15,270 --> 00:39:13,520
you can see the outline of the aircraft

1080
00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:15,280
but you can also see the the heat trail

1081
00:39:19,510 --> 00:39:16,560
you can see the hot air coming out the

1082
00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:19,520
back you can see the hot engines right

1083
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:21,280
so they start looking with an infrared

1084
00:39:25,510 --> 00:39:23,920
and they can't find it there either

1085
00:39:27,270 --> 00:39:25,520
they're traveling along for 10 minutes

1086
00:39:28,870 --> 00:39:27,280
behind this object and then they start

1087
00:39:30,790 --> 00:39:28,880
running out of fuel

1088
00:39:32,950 --> 00:39:30,800
so

1089
00:39:34,790 --> 00:39:32,960
unfortunately there was no ground radar

1090
00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:34,800
operating at the time

1091
00:39:38,870 --> 00:39:36,880
so there they were picking up on their

1092
00:39:41,349 --> 00:39:38,880
radar and picking it up on their

1093
00:39:42,950 --> 00:39:41,359
infrared

1094
00:39:44,069 --> 00:39:42,960
well i know i said they take that back

1095
00:39:47,349 --> 00:39:44,079
they did not pick it up on their

1096
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:47,359
infrared they should have he would think

1097
00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:48,240
um

1098
00:39:53,109 --> 00:39:51,599
but they were scanning with the infrared

1099
00:39:54,390 --> 00:39:53,119
they're picking it up on radar they're

1100
00:39:55,750 --> 00:39:54,400
not seeing it visually they're not

1101
00:39:57,349 --> 00:39:55,760
seeing an infrared they didn't know what

1102
00:39:59,829 --> 00:39:57,359
it was

1103
00:40:02,069 --> 00:39:59,839
uh could have been a radar anomaly a

1104
00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:02,079
radar

1105
00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:05,520
never

1106
00:40:07,829 --> 00:40:06,880
had any problems with it before and he

1107
00:40:10,630 --> 00:40:07,839
didn't have any problems with it

1108
00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:12,470
they made a return to the right to head

1109
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:13,760
east

1110
00:40:18,230 --> 00:40:15,760
after traveling for a distance over the

1111
00:40:19,430 --> 00:40:18,240
yucatan peninsula and heading northwest

1112
00:40:20,870 --> 00:40:19,440
they turned made a right turn to the

1113
00:40:21,910 --> 00:40:20,880
east

1114
00:40:23,910 --> 00:40:21,920
and

1115
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:23,920
they were still tracking this thing on

1116
00:40:26,550 --> 00:40:25,040
radar

1117
00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:26,560
oddly enough

1118
00:40:31,670 --> 00:40:29,200
it sped up it increased its speed it was

1119
00:40:33,270 --> 00:40:31,680
continuing to continue its track toward

1120
00:40:34,790 --> 00:40:33,280
the northwest whereas the plane was now

1121
00:40:37,270 --> 00:40:34,800
heading east

1122
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:37,280
it continued on its track northwest

1123
00:40:42,150 --> 00:40:39,359
at a higher speed

1124
00:40:44,150 --> 00:40:42,160
and finally disappeared about 40 miles

1125
00:40:46,310 --> 00:40:44,160
from the airplane which was the range of

1126
00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:46,320
the maximum range of their radar it was

1127
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:48,480
going faster

1128
00:40:51,589 --> 00:40:49,760
when they

1129
00:40:53,109 --> 00:40:51,599
after they turned away

1130
00:40:55,030 --> 00:40:53,119
now i sound a little strange for a

1131
00:40:56,390 --> 00:40:55,040
typical airplane

1132
00:40:57,829 --> 00:40:56,400
so if it was trying to run away from

1133
00:40:59,510 --> 00:40:57,839
them and it had the capability of doing

1134
00:41:01,670 --> 00:40:59,520
300 and some miles an hour which is what

1135
00:41:03,990 --> 00:41:01,680
it was doing after the plane after the

1136
00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:04,000
surveillance plane turned east

1137
00:41:09,589 --> 00:41:05,599
when they were traveling northwest they

1138
00:41:12,230 --> 00:41:09,599
were doing 220 or 30 mile knots i think

1139
00:41:14,230 --> 00:41:12,240
and then uh when the plane turned east

1140
00:41:16,390 --> 00:41:14,240
as objects sped up and

1141
00:41:17,829 --> 00:41:16,400
hit it off in the distance

1142
00:41:20,630 --> 00:41:17,839
whatever it was

1143
00:41:23,109 --> 00:41:20,640
that was the real ufo right there nobody

1144
00:41:24,870 --> 00:41:23,119
pays any attention to

1145
00:41:26,790 --> 00:41:24,880
nobody knows what that was

1146
00:41:28,950 --> 00:41:26,800
it's funny but then as they headed to

1147
00:41:31,109 --> 00:41:28,960
the east they're still looking for this

1148
00:41:32,550 --> 00:41:31,119
object with their infrared

1149
00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:32,560
and they suddenly start picking up

1150
00:41:38,470 --> 00:41:35,760
bright spots off in the distance

1151
00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:40,710
they initially get one or two bright

1152
00:41:43,670 --> 00:41:42,000
lights off in the distance and then they

1153
00:41:44,950 --> 00:41:43,680
get a group of them

1154
00:41:46,230 --> 00:41:44,960
and these things appear to be a

1155
00:41:47,990 --> 00:41:46,240
considerable distance away from the

1156
00:41:50,069 --> 00:41:48,000
airplane and

1157
00:41:51,109 --> 00:41:50,079
going behind clouds

1158
00:41:53,750 --> 00:41:51,119
but

1159
00:41:55,109 --> 00:41:53,760
the perspective of the view over these

1160
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:55,119
make it look like they're traveling

1161
00:41:59,109 --> 00:41:57,119
right along with the airplane they can't

1162
00:42:01,109 --> 00:41:59,119
see anything with the naked eye but they

1163
00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:01,119
can pick up these bright lights

1164
00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:04,240
with a video with the infrared camera

1165
00:42:08,309 --> 00:42:06,640
as they travel along to the east

1166
00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:08,319
these things as i said seem to be

1167
00:42:13,829 --> 00:42:11,280
traveling along with them and

1168
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:13,839
finally after

1169
00:42:18,069 --> 00:42:16,400
10 or 15 minutes i forget

1170
00:42:20,470 --> 00:42:18,079
these things have

1171
00:42:22,710 --> 00:42:20,480
dropped back behind or disappear and

1172
00:42:24,790 --> 00:42:22,720
they're not seen anymore and

1173
00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:24,800
that's basically the end of the sighting

1174
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:26,640
they picked up on radar a few things on

1175
00:42:29,910 --> 00:42:29,200
the ground perhaps and picked up on the

1176
00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:29,920
uh

1177
00:42:34,950 --> 00:42:32,000
infrared maybe some

1178
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:34,960
things on the ground that were hot but

1179
00:42:39,270 --> 00:42:37,680
the the uh

1180
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:39,280
when the

1181
00:42:43,990 --> 00:42:41,119
man operating flare said it looks like

1182
00:42:45,430 --> 00:42:44,000
he's got 12 ufos traveling one with him

1183
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:45,440
he's looking at something that makes

1184
00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:46,640
heat

1185
00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:48,880
but the question is what

1186
00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:52,160
well it turned out that a guy in

1187
00:42:55,349 --> 00:42:53,440
mexico

1188
00:42:57,030 --> 00:42:55,359
had realized right off the bat that this

1189
00:42:59,349 --> 00:42:57,040
airplane the people in the airplane were

1190
00:43:01,349 --> 00:42:59,359
looking toward

1191
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:01,359
a oil field

1192
00:43:06,550 --> 00:43:04,720
about 100 miles away and the pemaco oil

1193
00:43:08,230 --> 00:43:06,560
corporation

1194
00:43:10,630 --> 00:43:08,240
and they have these

1195
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:10,640
texas tower type things

1196
00:43:15,190 --> 00:43:13,200
out of the um

1197
00:43:17,750 --> 00:43:15,200
on the bay of water that's above the

1198
00:43:19,670 --> 00:43:17,760
yucatan island the gulf of mexico so

1199
00:43:20,710 --> 00:43:19,680
they're you know obviously close to the

1200
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:20,720
uh

1201
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:23,359
within 10 or 20 miles of the land

1202
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:25,200
but they're off in the water

1203
00:43:28,870 --> 00:43:26,640
texas towers

1204
00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:28,880
and they're pumping oil and

1205
00:43:32,390 --> 00:43:30,960
gas out and they burn the gas off in

1206
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:32,400
flames

1207
00:43:37,829 --> 00:43:36,960
many of them 24 hours a day

1208
00:43:40,790 --> 00:43:37,839
and so

1209
00:43:41,990 --> 00:43:40,800
the suggestion was made that

1210
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:42,000
what these people pick up on their

1211
00:43:45,670 --> 00:43:43,839
forward looking infrared

1212
00:43:47,589 --> 00:43:45,680
flir

1213
00:43:49,349 --> 00:43:47,599
was in fact

1214
00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:49,359
these fires

1215
00:43:54,710 --> 00:43:52,960
that is of 110 miles approximately

1216
00:43:56,630 --> 00:43:54,720
and i

1217
00:43:59,430 --> 00:43:56,640
i was

1218
00:44:01,589 --> 00:43:59,440
contacted by

1219
00:44:02,870 --> 00:44:01,599
james and i told

1220
00:44:04,790 --> 00:44:02,880
asked to

1221
00:44:07,270 --> 00:44:04,800
do the study of this

1222
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:07,280
sort of on the behalf of the

1223
00:44:09,910 --> 00:44:08,480
mexican

1224
00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:09,920
air force

1225
00:44:13,829 --> 00:44:11,760
they were giving me

1226
00:44:14,790 --> 00:44:13,839
a digital tape which had everything on

1227
00:44:20,790 --> 00:44:14,800
it

1228
00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:20,800
taped information that was

1229
00:44:25,109 --> 00:44:23,280
on the airplane

1230
00:44:28,069 --> 00:44:25,119
and they gave one of the trouble of

1231
00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:28,079
having everything translated for me and

1232
00:44:33,670 --> 00:44:30,720
provided me with maps and i got

1233
00:44:35,349 --> 00:44:33,680
help from other people as well

1234
00:44:37,589 --> 00:44:35,359
analyzed the whole situation and

1235
00:44:39,829 --> 00:44:37,599
concluded that the radar target

1236
00:44:41,190 --> 00:44:39,839
was probably a ufo

1237
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:41,200
uh i mean it certainly was not

1238
00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:44,240
identifiable and did strange things

1239
00:44:48,309 --> 00:44:45,920
it was invisible but it was picked up

1240
00:44:50,230 --> 00:44:48,319
continuously on radar not the first time

1241
00:44:53,670 --> 00:44:50,240
radars picked up things that are not

1242
00:44:59,510 --> 00:44:56,790
but very often radar targets so-called

1243
00:45:01,990 --> 00:44:59,520
radar angels or artifacts of the radar

1244
00:45:04,710 --> 00:45:02,000
itself or the weather problems

1245
00:45:06,630 --> 00:45:04,720
but here we have a situation where

1246
00:45:08,309 --> 00:45:06,640
uh weather couldn't was not playing a

1247
00:45:11,270 --> 00:45:08,319
prank playing a role

1248
00:45:12,630 --> 00:45:11,280
uh detecting a target at two miles away

1249
00:45:14,950 --> 00:45:12,640
from the airplane

1250
00:45:17,589 --> 00:45:14,960
it was maintaining speed and then

1251
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:17,599
sped up on its own when it was going

1252
00:45:21,670 --> 00:45:19,440
away from the aircraft the air aircraft

1253
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:21,680
turned away from it

1254
00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:24,720
so that was the ufo then as a

1255
00:45:28,230 --> 00:45:27,040
my analysis of the

1256
00:45:29,829 --> 00:45:28,240
flights

1257
00:45:31,910 --> 00:45:29,839
showed that in fact the people were

1258
00:45:33,030 --> 00:45:31,920
looking

1259
00:45:36,950 --> 00:45:33,040
and these

1260
00:45:38,470 --> 00:45:36,960
lights drifted backwards

1261
00:45:40,309 --> 00:45:38,480
as you're looking out to the side and

1262
00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:40,319
you're traveling along you

1263
00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:42,400
point towards an object that's a long

1264
00:45:45,109 --> 00:45:44,160
distance away

1265
00:45:47,829 --> 00:45:45,119
and

1266
00:45:49,270 --> 00:45:47,839
if you're traveling in a straight line

1267
00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:49,280
in some direction and you're looking at

1268
00:45:53,190 --> 00:45:51,440
something for almost 90 degrees to your

1269
00:45:55,190 --> 00:45:53,200
straight line direction

1270
00:45:59,109 --> 00:45:55,200
as you travel along your pointing

1271
00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:59,119
direction will drop back towards

1272
00:46:02,390 --> 00:46:00,720
towards the rear

1273
00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:02,400
and so the pouring direction on these

1274
00:46:06,390 --> 00:46:04,720
objects actually did drop back aways

1275
00:46:09,190 --> 00:46:06,400
because this was

1276
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:09,200
how they move how the plane flew along

1277
00:46:11,990 --> 00:46:10,800
bottom line being

1278
00:46:13,190 --> 00:46:12,000
they were looking in the direction they

1279
00:46:15,270 --> 00:46:13,200
definitely were looking in the direction

1280
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:15,280
of these

1281
00:46:19,829 --> 00:46:18,079
things with the gas flames

1282
00:46:21,670 --> 00:46:19,839
and so that was it seemed to be a

1283
00:46:23,829 --> 00:46:21,680
reasonable explanation i wasn't able to

1284
00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:23,839
absolutely prove by identifying each

1285
00:46:26,790 --> 00:46:25,440
flame with each

1286
00:46:28,069 --> 00:46:26,800
bright light

1287
00:46:29,910 --> 00:46:28,079
which is something you should be able to

1288
00:46:31,510 --> 00:46:29,920
do

1289
00:46:34,230 --> 00:46:31,520
but there may not have been enough data

1290
00:46:35,270 --> 00:46:34,240
to do that in any case

1291
00:46:37,109 --> 00:46:35,280
the uh

1292
00:46:39,349 --> 00:46:37,119
air force response was we've flown over

1293
00:46:41,190 --> 00:46:39,359
the area many times and never seen those

1294
00:46:42,630 --> 00:46:41,200
flares before

1295
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:42,640
the fires

1296
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:44,800
so i don't know but uh

1297
00:46:51,109 --> 00:46:47,839
that's probably explained the infrared

1298
00:46:52,870 --> 00:46:51,119
lights are probably not ufos

1299
00:46:55,829 --> 00:46:52,880
but there was one there earlier which is

1300
00:46:58,309 --> 00:46:55,839
the radar radar target i'd say was it

1301
00:46:59,190 --> 00:46:58,319
was an unidentified radar target

1302
00:47:00,950 --> 00:46:59,200
yeah

1303
00:47:02,309 --> 00:47:00,960
really or there wasn't anything the

1304
00:47:03,829 --> 00:47:02,319
point is

1305
00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:03,839
it wasn't a

1306
00:47:06,630 --> 00:47:05,200
balloon it was traveling a couple

1307
00:47:08,470 --> 00:47:06,640
hundred miles an hour

1308
00:47:10,069 --> 00:47:08,480
it wasn't an ordinary aircraft because

1309
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:10,079
you would have seen an ordinary aircraft

1310
00:47:13,349 --> 00:47:11,520
they couldn't they can't paint it

1311
00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:13,359
invisible and even somehow they had

1312
00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:15,040
managed to camouflage an airplane so you

1313
00:47:17,589 --> 00:47:16,480
couldn't see it by looking down on it

1314
00:47:19,270 --> 00:47:17,599
because it might look like the

1315
00:47:22,230 --> 00:47:19,280
background

1316
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:22,240
any engine any engine aircraft we have

1317
00:47:28,309 --> 00:47:25,440
creates heat even the much uh

1318
00:47:30,630 --> 00:47:28,319
valley hood stealth aircraft

1319
00:47:32,309 --> 00:47:30,640
would create a heat trail and certainly

1320
00:47:34,550 --> 00:47:32,319
not as great as

1321
00:47:36,470 --> 00:47:34,560
a jet aircraft or something but

1322
00:47:37,270 --> 00:47:36,480
you should be you should be able to have

1323
00:47:39,109 --> 00:47:37,280
seen

1324
00:47:41,349 --> 00:47:39,119
the engines

1325
00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:41,359
of any uh typical aircraft that would be

1326
00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:43,680
over the yucatan peninsula right and yet

1327
00:47:47,109 --> 00:47:45,520
there was nothing there on the flear and

1328
00:47:49,349 --> 00:47:47,119
nothing visible

1329
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:49,359
right yeah what was it

1330
00:47:52,790 --> 00:47:51,119
that's right that sounds like

1331
00:47:54,470 --> 00:47:52,800
it was a good one after all even though

1332
00:47:56,550 --> 00:47:54,480
the uh the

1333
00:47:58,710 --> 00:47:56,560
the thing that everyone looks at is

1334
00:48:02,710 --> 00:47:58,720
those lights traveling along well you

1335
00:48:04,550 --> 00:48:02,720
know yeah press press in garbage out the

1336
00:48:06,470 --> 00:48:04,560
press goes to the throat it's the same

1337
00:48:08,470 --> 00:48:06,480
sort of thing with the phoenix lights

1338
00:48:09,670 --> 00:48:08,480
what do they show for phoenix lights

1339
00:48:14,069 --> 00:48:09,680
videos

1340
00:48:15,589 --> 00:48:14,079
the players at 10 o'clock yeah and when

1341
00:48:16,950 --> 00:48:15,599
they're talking about they'll be

1342
00:48:18,870 --> 00:48:16,960
interviewing somebody about what you saw

1343
00:48:20,309 --> 00:48:18,880
at 8 30. oh i saw this big triangular

1344
00:48:22,230 --> 00:48:20,319
object went over and had a couple of

1345
00:48:24,309 --> 00:48:22,240
lights on and because it's as big as it

1346
00:48:26,470 --> 00:48:24,319
was as big as a city block

1347
00:48:28,309 --> 00:48:26,480
and while the man is describing that

1348
00:48:29,910 --> 00:48:28,319
they'll be showing the crystal arc which

1349
00:48:31,349 --> 00:48:29,920
has nothing to do with whatever actually

1350
00:48:32,390 --> 00:48:31,359
went over

1351
00:48:35,190 --> 00:48:32,400
phoenix

1352
00:48:36,470 --> 00:48:35,200
at 8 30. it's uh it makes you wonder if

1353
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:36,480
the flares

1354
00:48:40,069 --> 00:48:38,160
weren't put out there

1355
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:40,079
because of the sighting well i would

1356
00:48:43,270 --> 00:48:41,040
have to

1357
00:48:44,150 --> 00:48:43,280
be a quick react situation of course

1358
00:48:45,750 --> 00:48:44,160
because

1359
00:48:48,870 --> 00:48:45,760
yeah

1360
00:48:51,109 --> 00:48:48,880
my guess is it's more likely that the

1361
00:48:53,829 --> 00:48:51,119
maryland national guard was telling the

1362
00:48:55,670 --> 00:48:53,839
truth and they said they had

1363
00:48:57,270 --> 00:48:55,680
because they they had access to the

1364
00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:57,280
berry gold water training range for half

1365
00:49:01,589 --> 00:48:59,280
an hour an hour or something like that

1366
00:49:03,430 --> 00:49:01,599
up until 10 o'clock at night and

1367
00:49:05,349 --> 00:49:03,440
we're dropping flares as part of their

1368
00:49:07,190 --> 00:49:05,359
normal exercises and

1369
00:49:08,950 --> 00:49:07,200
um

1370
00:49:11,190 --> 00:49:08,960
if you think about it they're on one of

1371
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:11,200
those a10 aircraft there was

1372
00:49:16,150 --> 00:49:13,680
eight flares

1373
00:49:18,790 --> 00:49:16,160
and they had a certain number of

1374
00:49:19,670 --> 00:49:18,800
aircraft and a certain number of flares

1375
00:49:22,230 --> 00:49:19,680
uh

1376
00:49:24,309 --> 00:49:22,240
on all the aircraft that were involved

1377
00:49:26,069 --> 00:49:24,319
and apparently they were told that they

1378
00:49:27,670 --> 00:49:26,079
couldn't land with flares they had to

1379
00:49:29,190 --> 00:49:27,680
use them up

1380
00:49:30,549 --> 00:49:29,200
at least that's what that's what the

1381
00:49:32,230 --> 00:49:30,559
story was

1382
00:49:33,510 --> 00:49:32,240
well now if you look at the christian

1383
00:49:36,790 --> 00:49:33,520
ark

1384
00:49:40,630 --> 00:49:36,800
there's a single light that appears

1385
00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:42,630
the arc is actually eight lights to go

1386
00:49:47,589 --> 00:49:45,119
off in a row but there was a single

1387
00:49:50,950 --> 00:49:47,599
light that had been there for uh half a

1388
00:49:51,990 --> 00:49:50,960
minute or a minute before the arc begins

1389
00:49:53,349 --> 00:49:52,000
so

1390
00:49:54,790 --> 00:49:53,359
think about it if there were two

1391
00:49:56,150 --> 00:49:54,800
airplanes coming back and one of them

1392
00:49:58,950 --> 00:49:56,160
throws out a flare that could be a

1393
00:50:00,870 --> 00:49:58,960
single light and then one dumps in a

1394
00:50:02,630 --> 00:50:00,880
whole load of eight

1395
00:50:04,230 --> 00:50:02,640
one two three four five six seven eight

1396
00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:04,240
one after another like that

1397
00:50:08,710 --> 00:50:06,480
then you would get this arc of lights so

1398
00:50:10,950 --> 00:50:08,720
we're just about out of time here and

1399
00:50:12,390 --> 00:50:10,960
just one question comes to mind is what

1400
00:50:15,510 --> 00:50:12,400
do you think the future is going to be

1401
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:15,520
of analysis i know they can create more

1402
00:50:20,230 --> 00:50:18,240
and more sophisticated films to fool us

1403
00:50:22,870 --> 00:50:20,240
but do you think the analysis will be

1404
00:50:24,470 --> 00:50:22,880
more sophisticated as well well the

1405
00:50:27,030 --> 00:50:24,480
analysis will probably be more

1406
00:50:28,549 --> 00:50:27,040
sophisticated but i think it's still

1407
00:50:30,309 --> 00:50:28,559
going to come down to a lot of the

1408
00:50:31,990 --> 00:50:30,319
background stuff the

1409
00:50:34,069 --> 00:50:32,000
circumstantial evidence

1410
00:50:36,309 --> 00:50:34,079
why the film was taken who took it how

1411
00:50:37,190 --> 00:50:36,319
it was taken

1412
00:50:38,470 --> 00:50:37,200
you know

1413
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:38,480
you always have to put together a

1414
00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:41,040
history of the sighting it always the

1415
00:50:46,230 --> 00:50:44,400
problem here in ufos is ufos don't exist

1416
00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:46,240
therefore anything you videotape or

1417
00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:48,720
photograph is not real that's from the

1418
00:50:52,150 --> 00:50:50,880
point of view of conventional science so

1419
00:50:54,549 --> 00:50:52,160
you've got a

1420
00:50:56,950 --> 00:50:54,559
tough row to hoe to prove that whatever

1421
00:51:00,069 --> 00:50:56,960
it is is unidentifiable

1422
00:51:02,390 --> 00:51:00,079
uh right and you prove that

1423
00:51:04,630 --> 00:51:02,400
the proof can take place by

1424
00:51:07,430 --> 00:51:04,640
demonstrating that whatever is recorded

1425
00:51:09,829 --> 00:51:07,440
in the video or film or whatever

1426
00:51:12,870 --> 00:51:09,839
it's clearly not something that would

1427
00:51:15,829 --> 00:51:12,880
normally be there whatever it is

1428
00:51:17,670 --> 00:51:15,839
and then you've got to prove that

1429
00:51:19,349 --> 00:51:17,680
whatever the film or video is isn't a

1430
00:51:20,710 --> 00:51:19,359
hoax by somebody

1431
00:51:21,829 --> 00:51:20,720
one of the key things you'll have to

1432
00:51:23,510 --> 00:51:21,839
have is

1433
00:51:25,510 --> 00:51:23,520
access to the witnesses

1434
00:51:27,430 --> 00:51:25,520
anonymous videos and photos and so on

1435
00:51:29,750 --> 00:51:27,440
don't hack it right

1436
00:51:31,750 --> 00:51:29,760
yeah i will say that

1437
00:51:33,270 --> 00:51:31,760
a single photo or a couple of photos a

1438
00:51:37,750 --> 00:51:33,280
lot easier to fake

1439
00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:37,760
than a movie film or a video so

1440
00:51:41,349 --> 00:51:39,520
fake probability goes down as the

1441
00:51:42,549 --> 00:51:41,359
complexity goes up

1442
00:51:45,190 --> 00:51:42,559
but that doesn't mean that a fake

1443
00:51:46,069 --> 00:51:45,200
probability goes to zero

1444
00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:46,079
unless you've got a lot of

1445
00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:48,960
circumstantial evidence behind it to

1446
00:51:51,430 --> 00:51:49,680
to

1447
00:51:52,470 --> 00:51:51,440
demonstrate why

1448
00:51:54,150 --> 00:51:52,480
it should be

1449
00:51:55,510 --> 00:51:54,160
considered to be the truth as opposed to

1450
00:51:57,190 --> 00:51:55,520
a hoax

1451
00:51:59,030 --> 00:51:57,200
well this has been uh this has been

1452
00:52:00,950 --> 00:51:59,040
really interesting and i really

1453
00:52:04,630 --> 00:52:00,960
appreciate your time so this is martin